Tangled Up in Bob, #1: Rebecca Slaman

Welcome to the first in a new series of conversations with members of the Bob Dylan fan community, a little celebration now that I’m almost finished with the first draft of my book, When I Paint My Masterpiece: Bob Dylan on Film.

There are few films more widely ignored than the 1987 Dylan vehicle Hearts of Fire. Written by schlockmeister Joe Eszterhas and directed by Return of the Jedi helmer Richard Marquand, the film was so vehemently hated on its initial UK release that plans for a North American rollout were scuttled. It was released on video in 1990, and promptly forgotten about, too obscure to even achieve “so bad it’s good” cult status.

However, there are two people on Earth with a lot to say about this universally derided film: Ethan Warren, who’s obligated to think about this movie by virtue of writing a book on the cinematic Dylan, and Rebecca Slaman, perhaps the world’s only self-professed Hearts of Fire stan.

Rebecca also happens to be two things: a pillar of the Dylan fan community, and a great thinker about all things Bob, as demonstrated by (among other instances) her talk at last year’s World of Dylan conference. Rebecca and I exchanged a couple of tweets last week, and I quickly took that opportunity to ask whether she’d like to chat a bit about Hearts of Fire, and other instances of the cinematic Bob.

“I can not, and will not, turn down any opportunity to talk about Hearts of Fire!” Rebecca told me. And so we met up on Zoom for a wide-ranging half-hour talk on Bob films good, bad, and ugly.

First off, I would just love to ask what your Bob origin story is. 

I'm relatively recent, as far as Bob fans go. I was about to graduate college in 2020, and then the pandemic happened, and I was just stuck in my house, still in learning mode. I still wanted to be at college, and I was stuck on Zoom college. And I watched, [D.A. Pennebaker’s 1967 Dylan doc] Don’t Look Back, and I fell in love. I was just like, I want to know about this guy, Bob Dylan! He's so prevalent in pop culture, and I don't really know anything! 

It came to me because I watched the documentary about James Baldwin called I Am Not Your Negro, and there's a little bit about Bob in there. So what really hooked me–other than the fact that he was so charismatic, and interesting, and mysterious–was the time that he was part of, the 60s. It was 2020, it felt like the ‘60s were really relevant at that time. So that was my initial hook. And then I watched Don't Look Back, and I was like, Oh my God, he's so funny. His personality, and his humor, just really resonated with me. And that's how I first fell down the rabbit hole.

Well, it's cool for me, as the “Bob Dylan on film” guy, that it was a Bob Dylan movie that got you there. 

Oh, yeah. It's so good. And it's so great to revisit as you become more of a Bob Dylan fan, and be like, Is he acting here? What is real? What is the narrative that Pennebaker is making? It's great. 

So I would love to hear you summarize Hearts of Fire a little bit for the uninitiated.

Hearts of Fire is sort of like A Star is Born. It's about a young woman who has dreams of being a star. She's a local musician, and she stumbles upon Bob Dylan, basically. And she is intrigued by him, but he's kind of a washed up rock star in this world, who doesn't make music anymore. He's retired. But they have a sort of connection, I guess, was the intention. And she follows him, and joins him on tour, where she also meets Rupert Everett, who is a more famous, young, hot rock star. So she's forming her own career between these two men who are interested in her

 How do you get from Don't Look Back to this movie? 

Oh, pretty quickly, because I was so drawn to Bob Dylan on screen, and the humor of it specifically. I think the first time I saw anything from Hearts of Fire, it was the punch that Bob Dylan throws at Rupert Everett. 

Me, too!

It's so good. Like, less than two hours ago, I posted a clip from Hearts of Fire. It has almost 10,000 views on Twitter right now, which is crazy, because, like–people say they hate Hearts of Fire. They love it. They love it, and they don't even know it. 

It's a terrible movie. I feel like I haven't said that in the description of what Hearts of Fire is. It's iconically a terrible movie. But it's the best kind of bad movie, where it's so endlessly entertaining. And you just have to wonder, like, Why did they do this? What were these choices being made?

I was gonna kind of tiptoe up to the idea that this is considered a bad movie. You have to be the number one fan of this movie. I can't imagine who's gonna come up and argue about that. 

Yeah, it’s my niche. 

But you'll call it bad. You're cool with that? 

Oh, definitely. I don't know what kind of person you have to be to think this movie is good in any way. The script is terrible. The performances are terrible. The editing is hostile to the viewer at times, the way it'll cut to screams at a theme park, or a really loud jet engine just when you're not expecting it. It really makes you wonder what anyone was thinking during the creation of this film. But it does make so many choices, and so many big swings, that it's like any other Bob Dylan project–it's like a Bob Dylan song, where you can just open this jewel and see all the little facets of it, see all the references, everything it’s trying to do, and it rewards you doing that. There's a lot of bad movies that aren't worth watching at all. This is really worth watching, I would say. All of its qualities are entertaining to me. That's why I think it's kind of good. If a movie entertains you, what does bad or good even mean?

Hell yeah. I was afraid you were gonna be mad at me for the things I'm gonna say in my book!

Not at all. 

Cool. Cool.

So how do you feel about the new Bob songs? There's two new songs, and two covers. So that's about four, I think, total.

Like with every Bob Dylan on screen, he’s the best thing in the film, or the only thing to take away from it. He is not that great at performing the songs in the movie. He’s clearly lip syncing for all of them. Except, most people would agree, the most compelling performance: “A Couple More Years” at the very end of the film, where it feels live. I don't know if it is, but it's a really genuine moment where you get to see Bob perform this beautiful song that kind of sums up the whole weird relationship between Bob Dylan in his 40s and this 18-year-old girl. It's weird, and their chemistry never clicks. But when he performs, it's like, That's Bob Dylan. That's really him doing the song. And it's written by Shel Silverstein! I don't know why. I don't know where that came from. People don't believe me when I tell them, Shel Silverstein wrote the best song in this movie. 

But they're all kind of jams. They work in their own context. Not really memorable songs, but I like “The Usual.” And I like [Fiona’s] titular “Hearts of Fire” as well.

“The Usual” is my favorite. I'm kind of a John Hiatt fan–every time I hear a John Hiatt song, I suddenly realize I like it. But the songwriting on that one is a step above the ones that Bob wrote.

What is the nature of their relationship? Is it erotic? Is it romantic? Is it paternal? What is it meant to be?

I just had a little rewatch for myself, and I was really thinking about that relationship. Because it feels like the movie wants to be this voyeuristic thing of being in a relationship with Bob Dylan, this girl living this amazing dream of being with Bob Dylan. But there's no chemistry. It's like no one's telling them how to deliver their lines, or how to act towards each other. So it's just kind of awkward. And I feel like I've heard somewhere that Fiona said, while filming it, that Bob kind of treated her like a dad. It's a much more father-daughter relationship, until they kiss at the end. The script wants it to be romantic, but it never quite gets there, I think.

It's so hard to tell what the script wants, because his performance is so devoid of chemistry.

Yeah, he doesn’t like her at all! He doesn't want to be there!

But the whole great thing about Dylan on film is that he's so compelling. Every single syllable he says is just that little bit different from how any other human being would say that syllable. So you want to watch him, the way that you don't Rupert Everett. 

You don't want to watch them make out. I don't. And he's only, what, 46, 47? You could be a sexual being at 46, 47. He just doesn't project that. Perhaps not what we should be wandering into in our Dylanology studies, though…

But I do think about this: when this film came out. Jakob Dylan was 17 years old. Can you imagine being 17 and your dad making this movie? It has to be the most cringe moment of your whole life.

We haven't talked about Rupert Everett. We haven't talked about Fiona. How're they doing?

Yeah, Rupert's laughably bad to me. He sings some songs. What's so crazy about the cast of this movie is: like half of them are not even Googleable. People who worked on, or in, this movie are not actors, and never did anything other than this movie. And then you have characters like the beefy drummer, who is kind of iconic for that time, he was in Tina Turner's backup band, and some of her music videos. And this was Mark Rylance’s first film role! Like, what? 

That’s a hot scoop for me! Tell me more. Where is he? 

He's in Fiona's band when she first gets big. He doesn't have any lines, but she says, “This is Fizz, he's shy.” And they're in eye makeup, ‘80s glam-rock outfits, he's a guitarist, and he gives a couple of shots fake-playing the guitar. So yeah, the casting in this movie is nuts. Richie Havens has a little part, nails it harder than basically anyone else. He has a line–Fiona is like, All these musicians are bad, and he says, Girl, it don't matter. Just so good–just a little dose of reality in there.

With Fiona's acting, I was really thinking this time, she would have been perfect for the Disney Channel. If she was just 15 years later, she could totally make it as a Hillary Duff or a Demi Lovato, if she was directed well. With her quality of performance in this, I think she's perfect for that environment.

I was gonna bring up the blind lady, but I don't want to wander into anything that could be ableist. But a blind lady points a gun!

We have to talk about it! She’s introduced 20 minutes from the end of the film. And the point of her is that Rupert Everett keeps being traumatized in his music career, and that's the scary part of being famous, is people will kill themselves in front of you, I guess. But yeah, I don't even know if we can be at fault for saying any of this, because the movie is offensive in so many of these ways. But she's a blind lady. She can't see a thing. She's pointing a gun. And people act like it's a real danger! Just go up to her! Get out of the way! It doesn't make any sense at all. It's great, and it's so sad. 

I’m glad you asked me all these questions, I've been clearly waiting to express some of this. 

There's so much to talk about, and at the same time, it's such a thin little movie, right? It is very dense with incident, it is a busy, busy film, but it just really drifts along, and there's no real propulsion to it. 

Yeah, is there even a beginning, middle, and end? I couldn't tell you. 

And characters are constantly saying things, and then contradicting them. Like, [Dylan’s character] Billy’s retired, but now he's playing in England. He says, “I'm going home” several times before he leaves. He just keeps showing up again. I don't want to be mean to this movie, because I love all of my Bob Dylan movies so much. They're so special to me. But this one's a bit of a mess. Has there ever been a [bad movie podcasts] How Did This Get Made? or Flop House on it? 

It's very niche right now. The only things we really know about it are from Rupert Everett's memoir. That's how I know a lot about what it was like filming it. But I would love a deep dive.

How do you recommend this movie to people? What is the way to consume it?

You've got to love Bob Dylan. That's the baseline thing. And you've got to know that it's not good. But I would say if you can get through the first 15 minutes, you are so rewarded when Bob Dylan jumps into a lake, fully clothed, for two lines of dialogue, which is: “I listened to your tape. It was really good.” And then he says, “Ouch. Fish bit me. I gotta get out of here.” And then he swims away. It's so great. It's so funny. Think of it like a comedy, is what I would say to people. 

We can’t move on without commenting on one of the most ironic lines in any movie ever, which is right after the swimming. You know what I'm referring to? 

The Nobel Prize! 

Tell the readers what happened. 

OK, I'll set up the whole thing. So he is driving Fiona home. He says, “Your mom and dad live in your house?” She says, “Nah, they're dead.” And he goes, “Oh, no, I'm always saying something stupid. It's not like I'm one of those rock and roll singers who's ever won any No-bel Prize. Is that what it is? A Nobel Prize?” And she says, “I guess."

Which is what happened in real life! He's the first musician that won a Nobel Prize, and it was this bad joke in this terrible movie that no one has seen? I feel like this film might hold the crux of a canonical event in the universe. So many weird things about it like that. It's amazing.

So let's talk a little bit about [Dylan’s 2003 screenwriter-star turn] Masked and Anonymous. What was your initial take on that movie?

I had put it off watching it for a long time, because I thought it was a Western, and I was like, I don’t really love Westerns. I don't love Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid [Sam Peckinpah’s 1973 Western in which Dylan plays a supporting role]. I mean, I love Bob’s scenes in it. But I just didn't know what to expect. And with so many huge stars in Masked and Anonymous, I kind of assumed that Bob's role would be small. And then I started watching it, and I was like, Oh right, Bob co-wrote this movie! This whole thing is Bob Dylan! And I was amazed by it.

As I've tweeted about, it really reminded me of Southland Tales. I love Richard Kelly. Donnie Darko is my favorite film. And so I recently watched that, had my mind blown, because, as you can tell, I enjoy things that other people consider confusing or bad. It brings me great joy. So when I was watching Masked and Anonymous, I was like, Oh, yeah, I'm getting this same post-9/11 vibe from it. This cynicism, but also something so whimsical, and crazy, at the same time, underneath it all. 

And having experienced Southland Tales, where I can't follow the plot, and it's just colors and shapes and crazy performances, it set me up perfectly to watch Masked and Anonymous, where I'm not really following the plot, I'm just there for the crazy performances, and the Bob Dylanisms.

So yeah, I liked it. I wouldn't like it as much if it wasn't a Bob Dylan movie, but it's a Bob Dylan movie! So what more could you ask for? 

Have you seen [Dylan’s four-hour abstract 1978 directorial effort] Renaldo and Clara? 

Yeah, I guess I've seen it all. I don't know if I've actually sat down and watched it through, but I've consumed it in pieces. Pretty hard to keep my attention for that one, to be honest. But some things are really fascinating, when it stumbles into man-on-the-street stuff, what people are talking about with the culture, that's pretty interesting outside of the Bob Dylan of it all.

Let's speed-round the other stuff–the Scorsese movies? What do you think of those? 

Oh, I think that the real documentary [2005’s No Direction Home] is the perfect primer for getting into Dylan, it has everything that is compelling about him in that. I love that. [2019's] Rolling Thunder Revue is also great–those performances in that movie, all cleaned up, and with this made-up context, it's just perfectly Bob Dylan. I know a lot of people have weird mixed feelings about it, because they're like, It's lying. You’re not a real Bob Dylan fan if you don't accept the lie.

There were those criticisms at the time, like, “This is Trump-y.” What are you talking about? 

Yeah, what? And we got so much great new Bob footage from that, which I really love. I love seeing old man Bob.

Are you writing about [Todd Haynes’s 2007 semi-biopic] I'm Not There as well? 

Oh, yeah. I wrote, like, 12,000 words about that. I budgeted myself about 6,000 words, I wrote about 12. So you're a fan? 

Yeah. That was a weird one to watch early on, because you don't have context for anything that's happening. But then as you get to know Bob Dylan and the lore, it all pieces together, and you have context for what it was all about. So that's a great one to rewatch in my Bob Dylan journey. Cate Blanchett is so good. I love her as Bob Dylan in that. I find it uneven throughout. I think the one I like the least is the Heath Ledger bits.

I thought you were gonna say Richard Gere. Everyone says Richard Gere.

No, I get Richard Gere! I love old man Bob. I just feel like I have less attachment to [Ledger’s storyline]. He's so sexist. And I get the Bob Dylan of it all, but it feels a little removed for me. 

That movie makes me sob at this point in my life. The first time I saw it, I was pretty early in my fandom, and it was just like, What is this? I just rejected it. And then once you get to know his biography, it clicks into place for you. It's the Heath Ledger section at this point, the divorce storyline–when he shows up at the end to pick up his kids and drive away with them–oh, my God, I'll start crying now. It just wrecks me. 

Wow. 

It's got to be, though, that it’s combined with the Cate Blanchett stuff, because at the same time, he's driving away, and we've got [Blanchett as] Jude in the car, giving her monologue to Jones, and “Sad Eyed Lady of the Lowlands” is playing, and everything is perfect, and I cry. 

It's like someone had a dream about Bob Dylan. It's everything. 

Let's talk about your World of Dylan talk. Let's talk about fan studies.

So something I'm really interested in is people, and culture, and anthropology. But I grew up online, so I'm intimately familiar with fan communities. It colored a lot of the worlds that I was growing up in. And I find it really fascinating. 

So fan studies is a pretty new academic discipline. There's a couple open journals about it that you can read about. And people really dig into niches about K-pop, and certain television genres, and music. It's basically studying how fandoms work, and mostly online fandoms, because you can pretty much trace fandom as we know it today back to Star Trek, which is the same same timeframe as Bob Dylan. So people study how fandoms react to, and create, art on their own, in conjunction with properties, or people, or famous people. And in my [World of Dylan] speech, I talked about the Bob Dylan fandom, and how people react to Bob Dylan. Because he's an enigmatic, and sometimes controversial, figure, and the way a fandom takes shape has to do with its demographics, and the demographics have to do with how people grew up, and how people react to the culture that they live in. And Bob Dylan is culture, and he has been for 60 years. So I looked into how certain parts of the fandom react–canonizing Bob Dylan, being very protective of who they perceive him to be. And some parts of the fandom–often younger–will take Bob Dylan, and not take everything at face value, but rather transform his legacy into something new. 

We know how the canonization works. We know what the affirmational version is. Open-and-shut. But what is the transformational element? What's going on? You're about 10 years younger than me, you're tapped into a fandom that I am observing, but a little bit outside of. It just seems like there's some really interesting stuff happening in the conversation that this old man is sitting on his porch watching. 

During the pandemic, when young people were extremely online–I'd say even more so than now–and participating in creating this fandom through their friendships with each other, they developed this sense of humor that I call very irreverent of Bob Dylan, and making jokes to troll older people who hold this very high regard of Bob Dylan, and take him very seriously. Which is just silly, because he's a really funny person. So this transformational fandom engages with him, and his music, in a loving way, but a very irreverent way that I think is aligned with Bob Dylan's sense of humor, and what he lends himself to. His sense of humor really appeals to the current generation, the current moment, that's just so random, and so poking fun at older people, and and negging people, and trying to get a reaction. So they'll say crazy things like, “Bob Dylan is trans.” “Bob Dylan's literally a woman.” And about other figures, like the Beatles, like the Band, stuff like that. But it's all for fun, and it's part of professing our love for him.

Yeah, the irony/sincerity line is so interesting–when using irony is your way of professing sincere love. It's more interesting to use irony than it is to just be sincere. 

Before we go, how are we feeling about [James Mangold’s upcoming Dylan biopic] A Complete Unknown? 

Oh, I'm so glad you asked. I get asked about this more than any other person except maybe [star of the film] Timothée Chalamet. Because it's been in the works for so long, I just want it to happen at this point. There's only so much speculation we can do about how good it's going to be, or how good Timothée is going to be, until we see something. But I am excited. I think Timothée will be incredible. I know he’s been doing serious research for years, at this point, for the role. He has the vocal coach that did Austin Butler as Elvis, which is a really good sign. But I don't know how it's going to end up sounding. I mean, it's Bob Dylan; how it doesn't become parody, I'm curious to see. As far as the director, I don't know. I feel like it will be fine at worst, but I feel like it'll be good. At least passably good. 

The best thing that happened to me last year was, when I went to see Bob Dylan in Brooklyn, Timothée Chalamet was at the show. Like, the performance I'm gonna see onscreen will be inspired by the same show that I got to see. It's so cool. I guess it's not the same Bob Dylan up there that he's gonna be playing, but still, probably will factor in.

I saw him back in the fall, and there were people around me saying to each other, “He's as good he's ever been.” What's your take? Is he as good as he's ever been? 

He's something new! I don't really have much to compare it to. I've only ever seen him in his 80s. But I am thoroughly entertained by his live performance. It really seems like he's having fun. He's not going to do anything he doesn't want to do. He's doing it because he loves it. And I can really sense that when he's on stage–that he's having a good time up there. That makes me happy.

Bob Dylan's never going to read this, because Bob Dylan is never going to engage with any of the things that any of us say about him. But if you could ask him one question, what would it be?

I'd want to ask him about love, and how he sees romance at this point in his life. He's written a lot of songs about it. I'd like to know what he's feeling about it now. One conspiracy theory I have is that he's secretly married right now, and none of us know about it. I just wonder his perspective on love. Is that cheesy? Whatever. It's fine. 

If it is, I appreciate it. 

Be sure to follow Rebecca's Bob Dylan thoughts on Twitter at @ithrewtheglass, and subscribe to her newsletter.